| Archive for everythingleeds.myfastforum.org |
| Cockney White |
What did you expect Dennis?TWAT..!! |
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| HarryofOz |
Edited as this story is different from the original. | ||||||
| halfaperson |
How come we cant recall him anyway the way Bolton did with us last year. He is still our player contracted to us isnt he? | ||||||
| HarryofOz |
That's another strange twist - maybe we didn't include a clause in the loan deal. |
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| Cockney White |
If Wise was honestly loaning Derry out to "get fit", with a view on bringing him back to ER when he'd proved he was, a clause could have been included in the loan agreement that Derry could be recalled at any time. However, seeing as Wise has been lying all along, there was no such agreement made and so Derry can stay at Palace until 19 January, by which time I am sure Warnock will have made arrangements to have signed him permanently. |
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| halfaperson |
Hmm  hes not coming out this at all well is he? 
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| Cockney White |
Who? Derry or Mr Man-Management? |
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| halfaperson |
Your mate the latter. Cant blame Derry at all for this | ||||||
| Cockney White |
Oh, I'll let you off then.. 
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| nlag |
Something along these lines was likely to happen from the point that Wise began to lie to the fans about his reason for shipping out Derry. I expected the fragility of Thompson and Kish to expose Wise's petulant arrogance, before the old year was out, and not the likes of Douglas and Howson. To the same end, the injuries and lack of quality cover will leave us struggling, and it is the fault of one man only.....
Side before self Dennis......Get over it. Wise made a complete public tit of himself over the non mole story....Now he has sacrificed squad strength in pursuit of his childish vendetta. |
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| weasel |
It takes both teams agreeing to a recall clause to have it inserted. Palace presumably didn't want to allow us to insert it and as it is likely they are paying Derry's wages whilst he is there I doubt we were too bothered at the time. With Lubo obviously we were in a desperate situation to get any decent players in so weren't ina position to dictate terms.
I can't see why Wise is getting such flak for this. It is likely that even had we recalled Derry he would have played today and then that would have been it. |
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| Baldy |
We were'nt in a desperate situation to loan Derry out, so what if Palace are gonna pay his wages, if they dont want a re-call clause, tell em to bugger of and loan him to some other club. Wise may not have been bothered at the time, but that shows his lack of vision, or the fact that he and Derry were'nt getting along as some have rumoured... | ||||||
| HarryofOz |
Exactly |
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| weasel |
So we had a player that was nowhere near the first team and another club willing to pay his wages (probably the biggest at the club). Football is a business and it made good sense to loan him out. I doubt anyone but Palace wanted him and that is likely due to the fact he knows players there so it was less of a gamble for them. | ||||||
| nlag |
Clubs in higher leagues sign players no where near first team football, from lower leagues, because they have mates at the club....Crumbs....I wish my life was that easy to move up in. | ||||||
| weasel |
Get yourself more influential mates then 
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| nlag |
Or a fuckwit of a manager?
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| BillH |
Bottom line: Wise was desperate to get Derry out of the club and had no intention of playing him. His press statements said as much. With Derry's contract due to run out, all he wanted was to get him off the wage roster for the remainder of that time.
Then he gets some injuries and starts going on about Derry not wanting to come bacl. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the whole media circus wasn't a planted story to try and force Palace into buying Derry now rather than waiting until his contract expires next summer. I very much doubt Wise actually wants Derry back anyway, seeing how relations between the two disintegrated a long time ago. |
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| weasel |
At the time Derry was loaned we didn't have injuries to DaCosta, Douglas and Howson. We also looked like we had a decent left back in Parker so that Hughes was also in contention for midfield. Derry was so far down Wise's pecking order that I am not surprised they didn't feel the need (or want) to put in a recall clause and in all honesty I reckon one or two players will be signed prior to the next match so Derry's recall would have seen him feature in just one game.
The club still isn't in a position to turn down the opportunity to trim the wage bill by allowing Palace to dictate terms in the loan agreement. It was paying wages to players not playing for Leeds that screwed the club into the ground and although Derry's wages aren't on the same scale as those from the past it doesn't detract from the fact Leeds have paid his wages for the last 10 months when he was out injured. I imagine Derry's form (and fitness) has surprised Wise and obviously reflected badly on him but I think the club did the right thing financially and as stated earlier Palace were likely the only club that wanted him and I am sure the loan agreement has probably got an agreement in it to allow them to buy him and I reckon it will happen fairly soon. |
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| nlag |
One of Wise's unfortunate traits seems to be that he is unable to separate personal issues from business. Unless he learns this, he will never be a decent manager of anything, let alone a half decent football club.
His handling of the mole story was a farce. I listened to that unfolding. My take from day one was that Wise was looking for scape goats, or operating on cost reduction orders from above. And what a great story the mole one was.....Footballer goes to pub with mate and talks about football shocker....I wonder why Wise went very quiet as soon as the final whistle went and the PFA got involved. Perhaps because there was no real case to answer by anyone except Wise in the first place.. A cynic might suggest that the timing of the little mans outburst, off the back of a run that delivered 14 points from 12 games, was a smoke screen to hide his own pitiful performances. |
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| nlag |
Sorry but that is a load of tosh. Parker has not been in contention for a long time. Hughes had been at left back. Thompson and Kishishev are prone to injury and are frankly old. We may have had a lot of names in the squad, but Derry, a fit Derry (and he was fit, as he has proved) was very much in the pecking order. If Wise has been surprised by how fit Derry is (9 or 10 straight games, at a higher level) then Wise is a fucking idiot. |
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| nlag |
and on the subject of Da Costa, why is Wise loaning him out too?
I wont quote word for word, but Wise stated that Da Costa is not ready for the English game, needs to go out on loan, can't learn as he goes along, and let us down against Bury. So what is more English football than a cup game, against a lower league side, in front of a big home crowd?.....Nice one Dennis....Shall we play him for the last 20 when we are 4 - 0 up against xyz....No no no no no.....Let's chuck him in at Elland Road against a low league team hoping for a giant killing in front of 20000.....Oh fuck me he's got sent off....But don't say sorry I fucked up Dennis, blame him for not being ready for English (cup) football, give him a veiled slagging and send him out on loan. |
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| BillH |
Written off IMHO. His contract is only until the end of the season so if Wise is willing to let his go now he's probably played his last game in a Leeds shirt. I don't think Wise is capable of making professional decisions when his blood is up, and I think it doesn't take much to make him irretrievably angry with someone. He was a vindictive little **** as a player and my feeling is that it just reflects his character as a human being. He comes across as a nasty, abrasive and vindictive little man, which is probably why he and Bates get on so well. |
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| nlag |
Quite...
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| raveydavey |
According to Harry Bassett in his post-mauling interview, apparently there is no recall clause. You can draw your own conclusions as to why this might be.
In addition to this we are still paying part of his wages. Palace only took him on loan if we agreed to cover some of his wages. Which is nice. Good to see that old ruse is still working even with Cuddly Ken at the helm. Can you imagine the phone call? Wise "Hi, it's yer old mate Dennis here. Do you fancy coming back to play for us even though you are under no obligation to do so and despite everything that has gone on? It would really help get me out of the sh1t." Derry "F*** off" (perhaps) |
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| cardboardbox?Youwerelucky |
Fucking unbelieveable - really 
So we got stitched up over covering some of his wages (i'm sure we have been down this road before  ) - presumably because Wise was so desperate to see the back of him AND THEN when he realises he has dropped (another) major bollock is stupid enough to try and ask him to come back after NOT inserting a call back clause because he never wanted him back (which is the bit I actually don't understand and maybe BillH has a point about it being a smokescreen) - why would wise go and ask him back when he was probably 99.9% certain he would say no - to create another diversion? (and get us talking about something else other than the last 3 results?)
I have stayed reasonably quiet about Wise up until now (after all our remarkable run until the last few games has kept most of his critics quiet) - what has worried me all along is that I have not heard ANYONE say we actually played well with the exception of Swansea at home - we have nicked goals here there and everywhere (and I would rather we DID nick these than we didn't)- BUT and its a BIG BUT - we are now half way through the season which means the following: a) No one is overrawed by our "crowd" anymore as they have had one game to see the tremedous support we have - so less teams are likely to freeze a la Hartlepool b) Everyone now knows how we play and how we "might" be able to be beaten c) Do we have a Manager who can tactically change his game to suit his opponents or do we keep playing the same way and "hope" d) The cup final element has gone therefore teams will be more relaxed playing us Maybe I am over reacting however a 3-1 home loss against a mid table Oldham should not be happening to "promotion contenders" Something we have all said is that we are a big fish in a little pond and our squad is STILL the envy of every other team in this division and even with the 15 points we still had a chance of gaining promotion I hope Wise can turn things around but we now need a real run otherwise we will found ourselves outside the playoff places in a couple of games time (and this is after getting some daylight between ourselves and 7th place a few weeks back) |
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| weasel |
The timing of the mole outburst came after a very good win (2-1 v Palace) and could hardly have been brought up at any other time as it happened in relation to that game.
Parker hasn't been in contention for something approaching 2 months, the same length of time Derry has been away. Before Derry went Parker had been knocking on the door and it looked like he'd replace Clapham, sadly he got found out a bit and as such Hughes then came in at left back when Clapham left. I think that you have been half wanting us to lose just so you can slag Wise off. People keep going on about us having the best squad etc which is a load of tosh. We have a squad that was compiled by simply getting what we could. Anyone supposedly decent had f*cked off, and Derry would have too if he hadn't been out injured during the summer. Wise assembled a squad that has surpassed any realistic expectation but because the results were so good people start thinking the side is better than it is, it isn't. We have a keeper that nobody else wanted enough to make him a better offer than we did. We have a centre back pairing consisting of 1 player that struggled in our reserves for over a year and another player that couldn't get in Coventry's side last year. We have a rightback that despite playing a lot of games hasn't really convinced. We don't have a left back. As such we have got a utility man that was a fringe player at Norwich, decent enough to fill in many positions but not really good enough to hold down a permanent place. In midfield we have Prutton who as a freebie didn't get any offers better than Leeds. A player who is tarnished due to an altercation with a ref. We also have Douglas who despite being an international obviously didn't attract any offers in the summer. Who many fans seem to think is playing at 'his level' in this division. Then there's Carole who hardly featured last season, Westlake that most fans don't rate, Thompson that is injury prone, Kishieshev who impressed us last year on loan but since then has failed to get into a mid table Leicester side and has been poor for us. The one ray of light in Jonny Howson is injured. Derry looked good a couple of years ago but has been sh*t or injured since then but is now playing well as he seeks to get a move. In attack we have Kandol who was woeful last year and to be honest isn't good enough at this level. His goals would have embarassed Lineker, his touch and finishing is awful. The other ray of light for the team is Beckford who has shown he is class at this level, but has yet to prove it at a higher level which is why no one has tried to sign him, yet. Constantine has been injured most of the season and Flo has as well. Yet despite all that we have somehow managed to overturn a 15 point deduction to be in a play off place. I for one would praise the side for what they have done so far and would hope that we can now kick on as Wise finally gets the chance to bring in players that he actually wants, rather than just picking up what no one else wanted. I'm sure he knows the weaknesses of the side and if the transfer window wasn't in place would have been able to address them earlier. Who knows the fee we get if/when Derry is sold to Palace may be the difference between us being able to buy a player in an area we need or not being able to, that is likely as to why Wise is happy to let him go to Palace as he is a player that we can get a fee for but isn't a vital part of the side. I'm sure everyone would rather see Derry leave than Beckford. Okay we have been in a slump for quite a while but let's not all start knocking Wise because up until this point he has been achieving results with a side that still isn't quite what he wants it to be. |
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| nlag |
The mole incident broke in the run up to the Palace game. Wise was on the radio before the match bleating about it. You miss the point about Derry. Wise has lied to the fans, let his peronal issues damge the squad. That is bad management which ever way you look at it. I never want Leeds to lose, and do not need a reason to slag Wise off. I just choose not to most of the time, until he really deserves it, such as now. I have also given him some credit this season. On the other hand, I speak what I see and will not bow and scrape to anything just because it happens to be associated to the club. |
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| Cockney White |
That's a ridiculous statement, Weasel, and I'm sure you know it.
The fact is if Wise was doing his job right, he'd be forcing even his biggest doubters in to having to praise him. As it is, his inability to put personal issues aside and select the best 11 in the best interests of Leeds United Football Club leaves him wide open to critcism and will continue to do so until he learns to grow up..!!
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| Tanhilltimmy |
I'm not one of Derry's biggest fans but in this case he hasn't done much wrong, no recall clause, no case, Wise has a habit of blowing up rows out of bollox all, I wouldnt mind if he did it in the middle of a ten match unbeaten run but he does it whilst his limited tactics and reliance on crocked players is been exposed. | ||||||
| cardboardbox?Youwerelucky |
I like Weasel
I think he's Ken Bates  
At least you are the voice of the opposition (as in the opposite view to most on here) otherwise most of us would just continually slag Wise off without being countered 
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| weasel |
Thanks Boxy. I just think too many people are reactionary rather than looking at the long view. A few weeks back I think I was the only person on here making a case for still fighting for the 15 points. Everyone else just wanted to forget it but how crucial might any points won back be now?
I think if everyone casts their minds back to the first game of the season where a makeshift Leeds side was 1-0 down to Tranmere at half time and playing woefully. Did anyone realistically think we'd be in a play off place at the end of the season let alone at Christmas. Fast forward to now and okay so we have been in a slump but we are still a patched together side that has overachieved hugely (points wise rather than performance). If we can now get a few players in we can come again an dkick on stronger than before. Again in recent weeks most people seemed to suggest we didn't need new faces and that the best policy was to keep the money ready for the summer. How quickly things change. How much money did we spend in the summer? Not a lot. I bet most clubs in the division spent more than us and most teams hadn't gone through the turbulent summer and had the opportunity to get the player they wanted. Yes it is a convenient excuse but it is also truthful. I think Wise and the players have massively overachieved (a bit like Wilko's side that finished 4th then won the league but peaked too soon and then went into freefall). For me the time to judge starts from the end of January and if Wise has been able to bring in a few players and the team fails then I will slate him too. He has the opportunity now to try to shape the team how he wants it and make the team his. He has had the chance to judge which of the players haven't been good enough this season and now he has the chance to act. |
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| nlag |
I have yet to see anyone slate Wise. He has been picked up on a couple of ridiculous mistakes in judgement and awful examples of man management. A persons behaviour can set the tone for how people judge them. Nobody has detracetd from the season start. From my point of view, with our squad, I would expect to be in the top 6 comfortably by now, 15 points or no 15 points.
I will judge Wise on a day by day, game by game basis. His job is to run a football team. That does not start and end on Saturday afternoons, and does not start and end in August and May. |
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| Benlufc |
[quote="BillH"]Bottom line: Wise was desperate to get Derry out of the club and had no intention of playing him.
and i think the feeling was mutual. Derry is never going to play for leeds again by his wish and wises wish. end of the day wise is the manager and derry must have done something to upset wise because one of wises first things to do was make him vice captain. it is possible in this world for clashes of personality and dont forget they are still human and im sure most of us on here have had disagreements. i dont understand all your hatred of dennis wise.. is it the whole chelsea thing ? if so ill say two names... johnny giles & gordon strachan and as for the wise taking us down last season .. we would have gone down whith blackwell anyways who had lost bates confidence with playing 4-5-1 in playoff final and buying livermoor for 200k and seeling him two weeks later . i also cannot see how people can criticise wise for this season which without the -15 we would be top.. and as for the last few games yes we have been poor but what team in these leauges with minimum resources dosent. i hope you can make me understand your hatred |
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| nlag |
I think hatred is a strong word....Let's say dislike.
I was not a Blackwell fan, but was not a big vocal detractor. In the end Bates treated him appallingly. I think that Blackwell would have kept us up last season given the chance, and he had probably just about deserved the chance. Wise has proved nothing yet. This is his team. What do people expect? For Wise to walk in, have a clear out, be given an open cheque book to buy players so he and his fans can say this is his team?....He inherited a squad capable of CCC survival and got us relegated. He inherited a squad certainly 20 points better than most in D1.....So far he has just about performed to par in D1. |
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| weasel |
He inherited a squad did he?
Lets see he inherited Sullivan who was piling on the pounds. He inherited a defence consisting of regulars Crainey, Butler and Gregan. The others were Kelly who was on mega wages and Kilgallon that had to be sold to service the debt. He also inherited Marques, a player rotting in the reserves but helped in the resurrection of his career. In midfield he inherited the injured Derry, the 'homesick' Nicholls and I can't even remeber the rest so they must have been great. Up front he inherited the prolific (well for Ireland only) Healy, overweight (like so many of the Blackwell players) Blake and Moore. Also another player rotting in the reserves in Beckford. Yeah feck me we should be winning the champions league with that lot. |
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| nlag |
I had forgot about Beckford in the reserves. ( thought he was out on loan....silly me ).....And Nicholls punching Wise in the mouth so Wise sacks him for not being a man.
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| Tanhilltimmy |
My chances of keeping out of this debate are declining with every one of your posts..... The facts are that most of that list of players, plus some you missed are playing at clubs in higher leagues or clubs above us in this. Now i don't mind giving him credit for an attitude change but don't tell me he has made the squad better because he hasn't neither on skill/quality or how they play football. A mature look at our squad shows that outside of a decent Danish keeper who can play top 10 CCC and a young home grown midfielder who can have a good career if he is played enough, we have a very vunerable situation with some players who are confidence players who only show their best form in L1 (Beckford, Carole, Marques), some who are constantly battling against long term injuries and age and thus have some pace issues (Prutton, Thompson, Flo), players who despite the odd decent performance are stuggling with consistency even in this division (Kandol, Hughes, Richardson, Westlake) and those just plainly rubbish (Constantine, Heath, Douglas). Mix in the loan signings that havn't really added much (Kishishev, Clapham, De Vires, Andrews) and those we know little about (Huntingdon, Da Costa, Lucas) and you'd have to be a fanatic to believe Wise has done a good job other than winding up the team for 10 games. Now no one expects Wise to get sacked this season come what may, Bates will stand by him, but soon he has to be judged on his tactics and signings and at the moment is very balanced as to wether he will come out of the guy who hoofedballed us back to the CCC or the guy who hoofballed us nowhere. |
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| Benlufc |
Crystal Palace manager Neil Warnock has stated Shaun Derry did not reject the chance to return to Leeds United.
Derry is currently with The Eagles after Dennis Wise opted to loan him out in order to regain his match sharpness. However, a spate of midfield injuries left Wise scrambling for his phone in order to get Derry back to Elland Road. It had been thought Derry refused the chance to return to Leeds, although Warnock has now confirmed it was his choice and not the midfielder's to make. Refused "Dennis asked me on New Year's Eve for permission to let Shaun go back to Leeds before January 19, but I refused because I have to look after the interests of my own club," Warnock told the Yorkshire Post. "The loan deal runs until January 19 and I have told Shaun 'I am sorry, but I cannot let you go back before then'. We need him here. "Shaun knows he is a Leeds United player, but the decision was not his to make. It was mine as the manager of Crystal Palace. |
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| Tanhilltimmy |
longer version.
EXCLUSIVE: Neil Warnock has leapt to the defence of Shaun Derry over his failure to return early to Leeds United by insisting it was his decision to keep him in London. As revealed exclusively in the Yorkshire Post earlier this week, Dennis Wise had tried to recall the 30-year-old from his loan spell with Crystal Palace to solve an injury crisis in midfield. With Jonathan Douglas and Jonny Howson out injured and captain Alan Thompson and Radostin Kishishev both carrying knocks, the United manager wanted Derry to play against Oldham Athletic. However, Palace turned down the request and, with no recall clause having been inserted in the initial deal, Wise was left frustrated. It is understood the Leeds chief left Derry in no doubt as to his feelings in a heated telephone conversation on New Year's Eve. Assistant manager Dave Bassett then revealed after the 3-1 defeat to Oldham just how angry Wise felt over the saga, adding that Derry would have "a bit of a problem" if he returned to Elland Road after his two-month loan spell at Selhurst Park ends on January 19. The midfielder has come in for stinging criticism from Leeds fans on internet messageboards and radio phone-ins since it was revealed that Wise had failed in his attempts to recall a player whose wages are still being paid in part by the Yorkshire club. Palace manager Warnock has, however, refuted the suggestion that Derry had snubbed Leeds by deciding not to answer the SOS call. The Eagles chief told the Yorkshire Post: "Dennis asked me on New Year's Eve for permission to let Shaun go back to Leeds before January 19, but I refused because I have to look after the interests of my own club. "The loan deal runs until January 19 and I have told Shaun 'I am sorry, but I cannot let you go back before then'. We need him here. "Shaun knows he is a Leeds United player, but the decision was not his to make. It was mine as the manager of Crystal Palace." Palace's reluctance to let go of Derry is perhaps understandable with the midfielder having become an integral member of a team that is on the up in the Championship. In his 10 appearances for the club since moving to London on loan in mid-November, the Eagles have claimed seven wins and three draws to soar to eighth in the table. The burning question now is whether Derry returns to Elland Road or not when his loan deal expires, but Warnock is remaining tight-lipped over what the next move will be. He said: "Shaun was badly in need of match fitness when he joined us, but has come along nicely and has settled in well. "The deal runs until January 19 so we have a couple of weeks before a decision has to be made. But I have been happy with Shaun so far. "I will make the decision nearer the time." |
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| weasel |
Wise loaned Beckford to Scunny. A move which gave Beckford confidence as he ended up playing for a side creating chances and has reaped huge rewards. He couldn't cut it in our struggling side. Anyone who had seen Nicholls play thought he was cr*p. |
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| weasel |
None of the players who left for higher division clubs are exactly setting the world alight are they though and no one was disappointed to see any of the players leave were they especially all the defenders mentioned. In your post you claim he hasn't made the squad better, has seen all these so called superstars leave for higher division clubs yet you don't give him any credit for achieving 50+ points. We both agree the squad isn't great, yet only I give Wise credit for getting getting as many points as we have. If, as is the case, we don't have great players then the tactics chosen have brought out the best of what we have. When better players arrive then presumably tactics/style will change. His signings so far have been dictated by circumstances and who was available (other team's cast offs) rather than players Wise would have wanted given an equal footing to buy players in the summer. |
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| nlag |
Quality is relative. The squad Wise had last year was mid table CCC. He has loaned out our best player at this level because he made a public tit of himseldf and would not back down. Any other Chairman in the country would have sacked Wise last season for the crime of getting that squad and this club to its lowest ever position. | ||||||
| weasel |
The defence and keepr (with the exception of Kilgallon) were found out last year. Age or lack of quality had caught up with them. The midfield was poor and the strikers had all underperformed prior to Wise's arrival. We got to the playoffs on the back of Hulse's goals and after he was sold we never looked like scoring. The team was totally unfit (remember the countless late goals conceded).
Wise probably tried to make too many changes too soon. A case of a rookie manager trying to evolve a team too quickly. Ferguson did the same at Man U in his early days (shipped out established under performers and got in players that took their time to come good) and was lucky that the board kept faith in him. If he'd have done the same in the modern era he'd have been sacked. Wise also suffered from not getting the initial 'new manager good run.' Possibly linked to my point above in that established players didn't get the chance to show they were better as they were straight out of the team. We were a club in freefall. Wise failed to arrest the slide then but addressed several of the problems over the summer - mainly getting harmony in the dressing room with players united. Whether that means sacrificing the likes of Derry is a point that will always divide fans who don't get to see what happens day to day at the club. He also got the team fit and reduced the average age. Now is another test, and a different one, of his managerial career. Can he arrest a slump? Last season he had valid reasons/excuses (see above) for not being able to but this season he has a bit of money to spend, he now has the chance to make positive changes and his time to be judged starts now. |
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| nlag |
You've lost me now
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| weasel |
To put it in short I agreed with some of what you wrote, disagreed with some of what you wrote and didn't read the rest.
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| nlag |
Ok I am with you .....Killa was great, Sully was crap.
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| Benlufc |
hit the nail on the head for me there. |
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| weasel |
Return the favour and hit the 'nlag' on the head for me
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| nlag |
Thank you Weasel....Would not be the first or last time.
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| BillH |
Seems the whole "Derry refused to come back" story was a pile of steaming poo anyway. Warnock was simply not going to let him return early, according to him.
TBH, this makes much more sense. I've never heard of such decisions being made the the player before. Sky Sports story |
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| nlag |
None of which makes Wise look any the better for puting him out on loan in the first place
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| Benlufc |
at the time tho we were winning and had douglas kish thommo howson all ready to play. ok yes the plan backfired now we are out of midfieldersbut what human can predict the future ? | ||||||
| cardboardbox?Youwerelucky |
Apart from Nostredamus no one What most people do is "plan" for the future not take each day as it comes - so all this could have been resolved if we (sorry when I see "we" I actually mean Wise and possibly Bates) had inserted a call back clause (which every fucker seems to do when we have players on loan) on the off chance that the 100% playing records of Kishishev and Thompson were "troubled" after all with the hectic schedule over Christmas even people with their 100% playing record "might" get an injury they can't recover from in time (or suspended obviously)
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