Archive for everythingleeds.myfastforum.org           everythingleeds.myfastforum.org Forum Index -> Current Affairs nlag Moses..... ....Prophet, maker of laws, chosen by God to lead the Jews from slavery, and receiver of The Commandments. Would you be insulted if I called my teddy bear Moses? Should I stand accused of idolatry? wewantourdarbyback Its impossible to apply the same situation to a country that does not follow Sharia law. It is the law over there and no matter what we think of that, the teacher broke their law and so will recieve the punishment they see fit. I hate the idea of that law but we cannot really judge the situation from our point of view nlag So essentially you are saying, when in Rome do what the Romans do? What if I choose to call my cat Mohammad? Is that disrespectful? Should I stand accussed of idolatry? wewantourdarbyback If your in a country that follows shariah law you are clearly guilty under a ridiculous law, but none the less guilty. Here of course do what you want, we have what is called freedom. Cockney White We also moan when "visitors" to our country don't abide by our laws. Should it be any different when we are the ones doing the "visiting"? Of course the teddy bear case is ridiculous. Even more so because the lady in question was teaching in a Christian school and the complaint was raised by some of the parents of her pupils. Trust me when I say that this situtation is more to do with politics than it is about Islam and, as usual, real Muslims have been and will continue to denounce this type of incident. nlag A couple of quotes. These to me are comments made by sensible down to earth people of particular religious beliefs.: This is unbelievable. I'm fed up of reading and hearing stupid incidents like these, which further enhance the incorrect portrayal of Islam. The teacher has quite clearly made an innocent mistake. Islam is about tolerance and forgiveness. The possible repercussions of this incident contradict this entirely. It provides more fuel for the anti-Muslim sentiment around the world. British Muslim, London, England To feel offended by what the teacher did is impossible. She should not be punished for something like that. I believe that the teacher is in her right mind and is aware that she is in an Islamic country. I am sure she knows what can create religious tension and she wouldn't have done such a thing on purpose. The poor lady is being accused of a sin she did not commit. I hope and pray that the UK government will take this seriously and intervene with vigour before things get out of hand. Why aren't Muslim brothers taking more kindly to such things? Sanity my people! Salma Aki, Khartoum Sudan I have scanned around reading up on the teacher / teddy bear story. Some senior clerics in Sudan are calling this an outrage and demanding the strongest punishment from the court. Other clerics also claim that it is a deliberate attempt by the West to insult and undermine Islam. What we have here is a non event, blown out of all proportion, such that it has turned into a situation of International interest. It is easy to see how people are all too prepared to blame war on religion. nlag Cockney White wrote: Trust me when I say that this situtation is more to do with politics than it is about Islam and, as usual, real Muslims have been and will continue to denounce this type of incident. Hence the quotes To add some balance to the discussion, this is what fundamentalism can produce in any society....Yes even the USA The Westboro Baptist Church are a band of homophobic, anti-semitic, obnoxious Christian fundamentalists who actually believe they're doing the world some good by essentially gate-crashing the funerals of dead US Soldiers with signs saying "GOD HATES FAGS", "JEW FAGS" and "THANK GOD FOR DEAD SOLDIERS". So what causes conflict? Religion, or people hell bent on conflict, hiding behind religion in order to achieve their own ends? Cockney White nlag wrote: So what causes conflict? Religion, or people hell bent on conflict, hiding behind religion in order to achieve their own ends? Nail on head, Mate.. Gopher What about the boys called Mohammed then?? is that not an insult calling a boy by the same name. And reports are that a boy called Mohammed named it after himself. nlag From what I have read, the name Mohammad is given in respect to, and honour of the prophet. But the naming of objects and animals may be viewed as idolatry. Gopher So my pet pg tips monkey that I have just got will have to have another name now. Gopher Dear Dierdrie, I have this monkey called Mohammed, it has caused quite a stir by naming him so, what shall I do?? Yours sincerely A Halibut cardboardbox?Youwerelucky Flog her I believe that whichever country you are in you must abide by its rules regardless of how archaic or ridiculous they may seem. Will she be flogged (probably not) the UK government will go riding in on a white horse and save this poor lady from treachery plus it keeps the headlines off brown for a few days Unfortunately everyone who comes here seems to forget that including our own government wewantourdarbyback cardboardbox?Youwerelucky wrote: Flog her I believe that whichever country you are in you must abide by its rules regardless of how archaic or ridiculous they may seem. Will she be flogged (probably not) the UK government will go riding in on a white horse and save this poor lady from treachery plus it keeps the headlines off brown for a few days Unfortunately everyone who comes here seems to forget that including our own government nail hit Cockney White Latest halfaperson Theres at least two issues here. The first is religion and the frankly frightening hold it seems to have on people both collectively and individually. I aint discriminating between any of them here either. To me any doctrine that meticulously spells out how people are to live their lives means only one thing. Some bastards are having a good life at the expense of others. I aint denying the possibility of the existence of a god either but that’s a whole other topic. If there is one it is very hard to think such subjugation of the human spirit and freedoms, (the very thing god created) is part of gods plan. The only view I have on this is that some religions are worse than others and some are downright dangerous. Worse of all are the people who head the religious organizations.The're all power mad ego maniacal psychotic lunatics only interested in maintaining their position of power The second issue here is one of awareness and respect of local law and customs no matter how stupid you might think them. You would have to have come from Mars not to be aware that muslims get rather tetchy about this sort of thing. The biggest irony to come out of all this is that the most protest seem to come from the people who believe immigrants coming over here should adopt and obey our way of life, laws and customs. She was either very brave and humane to go over there to offer her services or totally tonto. To give her the benefit it must have been the former. If she didn’t believe what she was involved with was lilely to cause issues she must be tonto or thick. If she thought it would, but allowed it to happen anyway she must be tonto or thick. Bottom line, tonto or thick. Not a lot of sympathy here im afraid. Now if she had said that teddy bear was good enough for Jehovah then an immediate stoning should have taken place and we could have all enjoyed it, maybe with a bag of gravel. 30 Mill Obviously she should have named the teddy "Jihad Suicide Nail Bomber" cardboardbox?Youwerelucky 30 Mill wrote: Obviously she should have named the teddy "Jihad Suicide Nail Bomber" Not quite as catchy is it nlag halfaperson wrote: Theres at least two issues here. The first is religion and the frankly frightening hold it seems to have on people both collectively and individually. I aint discriminating between any of them here either. To me any doctrine that meticulously spells out how people are to live their lives means only one thing. Some bastards are having a good life at the expense of others. I aint denying the possibility of the existence of a god either but that’s a whole other topic. If there is one it is very hard to think such subjugation of the human spirit and freedoms, (the very thing god created) is part of gods plan. The only view I have on this is that some religions are worse than others and some are downright dangerous. Worse of all are the people who head the religious organizations.The're all power mad ego maniacal psychotic lunatics only interested in maintaining their position of power The second issue here is one of awareness and respect of local law and customs no matter how stupid you might think them. You would have to have come from Mars not to be aware that muslims get rather tetchy about this sort of thing. The biggest irony to come out of all this is that the most protest seem to come from the people who believe immigrants coming over here should adopt and obey our way of life, laws and customs. She was either very brave and humane to go over there to offer her services or totally tonto. To give her the benefit it must have been the former. If she didn’t believe what she was involved with was lilely to cause issues she must be tonto or thick. If she thought it would, but allowed it to happen anyway she must be tonto or thick. Bottom line, tonto or thick. Not a lot of sympathy here im afraid. Now if she had said that teddy bear was good enough for Jehovah then an immediate stoning should have taken place and we could have all enjoyed it, maybe with a bag of gravel. Some interesting points, and hard to disagree in the main. Some generic comments about religion that I would debate, but that, as you say, is for another thread another day. There appears to be a consensus on the thread, that we should respect the traditions, laws and beliefs of other nations and nationals when in their countries. When does an incident become an atrocity? When are human rights transgressed? So it seems that 15 days in jail is OK. 15 days in prison for a minor faux pas. An international situation built around a toys name. I have heard say that Sudan has a savage fundamentalist government, hell bent on removing Christians from its society, and persecuting them at every opportunity. But defending the Human Rights of Christians is not fashinable or trendy, so it's not news worthy. Christians so often are portrayed and viewed as bible bashing lunatics, but fundamentalists of any other flavour are to be honoured and respected it seems.... So what about 40 lashes? Is that OK? What about if students protest, and get shot at, will that be OK? There is a line, I am just interested to hear where people think that line is, or is it none of our business?. In the meantime, the civilised world and civilised governments (I use the term lightly) dine all around the globe at the same table as savages. cardboardbox?Youwerelucky Personally I would like to see Brown remove ANY aid we give this country at all and impose any sanctions we can regarding trading with us. But we never will - we never ever send any messages out now to the outside world that we don't get pushed about and we will defend our citizens when we deem it appropriate - instead we roll over on to our backs and wait for our tummy to be tickled (or bend over and wait to take it up.......) nlag From the BBC.......Savages lead by savages....Thank goodness that the Muslim community in the UK is being responsible and level headed in its comments.....No chance the the brain dead BNP types will take such a level headed view of events at home. Marchers took to the streets after Friday prayers to denounce the sentence as too lenient. The protesters gathered in Martyrs Square, outside the presidential palace in the capital, many of them carrying knives and sticks. Marchers chanted "Shame, shame on the UK", "No tolerance - execution" and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad". Hundreds of riot police were deployed but they did not break up the demonstration. In my view, we should not recognise this state in any way shape or form. Secure the release of the British woman, get her home, and then expel the Sudanese ambassador and foreign office staff. Cut all communication and warn Brits not to travel there. If they want to live like savages in the dark ages, let them do so. cardboardbox?Youwerelucky nlag wrote: From the BBC.......Savages lead by savages....Thank goodness that the Muslim community in the UK is being responsible and level headed in its comments.....No chance the the brain dead BNP types will take such a level headed view of events at home. Marchers took to the streets after Friday prayers to denounce the sentence as too lenient. The protesters gathered in Martyrs Square, outside the presidential palace in the capital, many of them carrying knives and sticks. Marchers chanted "Shame, shame on the UK", "No tolerance - execution" and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad". Hundreds of riot police were deployed but they did not break up the demonstration. In my view, we should not recognise this state in any way shape or form. Secure the release of the British woman, get her home, and then expel the Sudanese ambassador and foreign office staff. Cut all communication and warn Brits not to travel there. If they want to live like savages in the dark ages, let them do so. Absolutely agree - its about time our government started to say enough is enough - (for once) brown got it right (last week) by not attending the European event with Mugabe attending halfaperson Quote: So what about 40 lashes? Is that OK? What about if students protest, and get shot at, will that be OK? There is a line, I am just interested to hear where people think that line is, or is it none of our business?. In the meantime, the civilised world and civilised governments (I use the term lightly) dine all around the globe at the same table as savages. Well we could issue an invite to people of oppressed countries to come and live here if they don’t like where they live . Sorry only half joking. Human rights infringements are never ok and the world should unite and put it right. But as you metaphorically and accurately put it there is no real motive for the leaders to change things as long as they are all milking the same beast. Any change has got to come from bottom up. raveydavey cardboardbox?Youwerelucky wrote: Personally I would like to see Brown remove ANY aid we give this country at all and impose any sanctions we can regarding trading with us. But we never will - we never ever send any messages out now to the outside world that we don't get pushed about and we will defend our citizens when we deem it appropriate - instead we roll over on to our backs and wait for our tummy to be tickled (or bend over and wait to take it up.......) Bang on right. I agree with many of the points about this being driven by fundamentalists, but this is a ridiculous situation and the Sudanese government could have quickly and easily kicked her out of the country and ended the matter with a minimum of fuss. As it is the matter play into the hands of axe-grinders on both sides. However, she's in jail and I feel that the minute she's out of the country we should cease all aid. Simple, act in this way and you don't get our money. I dread to thing how many millions a year in our taxes are heading their way - and to regimes like tham Lets be totally honest - the Sudanese government can't be short of a few quid as all the news coverage of this has shown their ambassodor swanning round the FCO in a shiny S-class Mercedes complete with "SUD 1" plate and blinged up alloys. cardboardbox?Youwerelucky Just been watching the 1000's   of protester calling for her to be executed What a god you must follow when he wants to take the life of a human being for calling a teddy bear after one of his prophets   Are we in 2007 or the year 7 Complete and utter bollocks HarryofOz Karl Marx was spot on when he said 'religion is the opiate of the masses'. Religion (God's will) has been used since time began for those in power to justify their power and the privileges that come with it over those who are downtrodden and exploited by those in power. Religion has nothing to do with a belief in God it is about the alleged practices that come with that belief. It is used by those is power to dominate the thoughts of others and take away their possessions (for example tithes). And the more religious people are, the more they hate anyone who is different to them. Personally I don't believe in God...I believe man created God for his own personal selfish reasons rather than God created man. Or maybe, man created and shaped religion rather than any divine being doing so. nlag I have some good friends who are hugely religious. The more religious they have got, the more giving and loving they have become. It is the human will of hateful humans that manifest hatred and greed in society, in the name of religion. If religion did not exist would man live happily side by side? halfaperson Like they do now ? nlag My point is that religion is a convenient peg to hang problems on...If we did not have religion there would be another scapegoat. Things would be no better or worse, just different excuses. HarryofOz nlag wrote: My point is that religion is a convenient peg to hang problems on...If we did not have religion there would be another scapegoat. Things would be no better or worse, just different excuses. The problem is that religion is more wide-spread than any other unifying force and more serious in that you are promising the individual eternal salvation no matter what you ask them to do because what is being done is being done in the name of God. Religion can call to arms many more people than nationalism can and a true believer who believes that God will take them to heaven if they kill person X is more dangerous than one who is being paid to kill person X or even is willing to kill person X for patriotic reasons. Religion like other beliefs (patriotism for example) is often misused and abused to cause harm to others and as I said is more dangerous because of its numbers and spread. Using Islam as an example - and I'm not saying Islam is better or worse than any other religion. But lets us assume that Islamic leaders all over the worlds want to spread Islam by way of force...that is more dangerous than a single country wanting to spread its wings by way of force. In my opinion anyway. nlag Quote: you are promising the individual eternal salvation no matter what you ask them to do because what is being done is being done in the name of God. I think that statement may only apply to fundamnetal extremsists of any given faith. Quote: Religion can call to arms many more people than nationalism can and a true believer who believes that God will take them to heaven History shows that the major conflicts of the last century were more about nationalism, resources and real estate. True believers and followers of faith are not without minds of their own. They are not without free will, and a mind to use to reason. Extremists will find a banner to march behind, whatever their actual cause. Hence, sensible followers of a given faith can regularly be heared condeming extremists and fundamentalists. Quote: that is more dangerous than a single country wanting to spread its wings by way of force. In my opinion anyway. I am not being flippant, but what is the excuse of the USA then?......God bless America HarryofOz Its way too late to do all those complicated quotes lol. You are right the danger lies with extremists and sensible followers of any religion will reject the calls to arms by extremist leaders. The same way that patriots or anyone who loves their country will reject extremist nationalism and xenophobia. The major wars in the last century were nationalistic but the Nazis for example still used religion - exploiting anti-semitism - as part of their plans. They were helped in their genocide against the Jews by people from many nations - take away religion and religious prejudice. The US has been a major player in world conflict no doubt - but again is using religion (anti-Islam) as a major incentive in its current campaigns. Even the cold war was a fight for the God-fearing against the atheistic communists. Religion is a dangerous weapon because it crosses national borders. I admit I was generalising when I said that religion only leads to evil/wrong behaviour on the part of the religious but I still think that it has more potential to cause harm than other beliefs. There are too many people who are selfish and power-hungry for man to live in peace side by side...I simply cannot see that ever happening...and such people will use anything from 'false patriotism/nationalism' to religion to achieve their aims and I think religion is the most dangerous weapon available. nlag HarryofOz wrote: There are too many people who are selfish and power-hungry for man to live in peace side by side...I simply cannot see that ever happening...and such people will use anything from 'false patriotism/nationalism' to religion to achieve their aims and I think religion is the most dangerous weapon available. Firstly, don't be dissing me quotes....First time I have ever managed that. Essentially we agree on the major point. Religion can be perverted and used as a dangerous and potent lever. It can also be used as a passive and caring way of life. It says in Revelations that the word of Christ will be spread to all corners of the earth. I go to church most Sunday mornings, and I haven't had my call up papers for a global crusade yet . If you take enough people, at an impressionable enough age, and preach a philosophy to them day in and day out, you will end up with a loyal and focussed force, willing to do almost anything in the name of the cause. My belief is, that if religion did not exist, humans would have found someother reason to pour hatred onto one and other. Gopher Re: Moses..... nlag wrote: ....Prophet, maker of laws, chosen by God to lead the Jews from slavery, and receiver of The Commandments. Would you be insulted if I called my teddy bear Moses? Should I stand accused of idolatry? HarryofOz nlag wrote: HarryofOz wrote: There are too many people who are selfish and power-hungry for man to live in peace side by side...I simply cannot see that ever happening...and such people will use anything from 'false patriotism/nationalism' to religion to achieve their aims and I think religion is the most dangerous weapon available. Firstly, don't be dissing me quotes....First time I have ever managed that. Essentially we agree on the major point. Religion can be perverted and used as a dangerous and potent lever. It can also be used as a passive and caring way of life. It says in Revelations that the word of Christ will be spread to all corners of the earth. I go to church most Sunday mornings, and I haven't had my call up papers for a global crusade yet . If you take enough people, at an impressionable enough age, and preach a philosophy to them day in and day out, you will end up with a loyal and focussed force, willing to do almost anything in the name of the cause. My belief is, that if religion did not exist, humans would have found someother reason to pour hatred onto one and other. Firstly I apologise if I offended you with any criticism of religion or religious ..I know you haven't indicated any offence, but just in case I have. And you are right religion can be used to teach good and compassion and decency. I suppose I get angry when religion is not used for such things because that is what a good faith system/belief should do. Its almost because I expect anyone who says they believe in God to automatically be a good person that it adds to my disappointment/resentment/anger when it turns out that they are not. And as to your last point...I agree absolutely...those in power will almost inevitably create hatred and try and instil hatred against anyone who threatens their power and those who want power and don't have it will do the same against those who do. raveydavey Would now be a good time to reflect that the major organised religion in this country came about because someone couldn't get a divorce a few hundred years ago? It's also no secret that many organised religious festivals take place at around the time when older (e.g. pagan) festivals used to happen. I guess I'd call myself a non-practising Christian. Do I believe in God? Well I believe that there is some greater presence out there than I will ever understand. I can't see that doing so would make me want to go out and kill people who held a different belief though, so I'm not sure what motivates some others. I'm also fairly sure that there won't be a specific passage in the Koran calling for much of what goes on in the name of "Islam", but I'm sure there are plently out there who are quite happy to twist things to suit their own purposes. nlag Harry...I am not offended Why should I be? I think it is healthy to share thoughts, convictions etc., particulraly in a friendly environment. Ravey...The C of E history is undeniable. It is  still underpinned by the Old and New Testaments. Having said that, I have no particular axe to grind for C of E or any other flavour of Christianity. I have my thoughts and beliefs and do not feel denominationalism is a problem. Each to their own. I have not read the Koran (qu'ran ?) but the little I have read about it, from reasonable commentators, is that it teaches peace, love, tolerance. NE1 Humanism anyone? We have one planet, we have to learn to share it or we are doomed nlag NE1 wrote: Humanism anyone? We have one planet, we have to learn to share it or we are doomed My point exactly It will never happen...We are doomed...Enjoy the ride NE1 nlag wrote: NE1 wrote: Humanism anyone? We have one planet, we have to learn to share it or we are doomed My point exactly It will never happen...We are doomed...Enjoy the ride Hope Leeds United are back in the prem by then   (it was all gettin a bit serious, sorry   ) nlag NE1 wrote: nlag wrote: NE1 wrote: Humanism anyone? We have one planet, we have to learn to share it or we are doomed My point exactly It will never happen...We are doomed...Enjoy the ride Hope Leeds United are back in the prem by then   (it was all gettin a bit serious, sorry   ) Doh.... fraggasassingsassingfragging cardboardbox?Youwerelucky nlag wrote: It says in Revelations that the word of Christ will be spread to all corners of the earth. If God made the earth - surely he knew it was round   nlag And he must have a sense of humour. He made Belgium. wewantourdarbyback nlag wrote: And he must have a sense of humour. He made Belgium. but then forgot to put any people in it... when i went the whole of belguim appeared to be deserted nlag OK, so the teacher has been released. The next priority is to get her home safely. Anybody think it would be overkill to Nuke Sudan once the plane is in the air? Gopher Home safely??She`s going to Liverpool ffs. she would be better off left there. nlag raveydavey Apparently she was born in Sheffield. Which explains a lot. Bloody Southerners.   Glad she's on her way home. The sad thing here is the real losers will be the ordinary Sudanese. Those in power will carry on as they always have and anyone thinking of where to do voluntary (or so poorly paid it is almost voluntary) work overseas will be sure to give Sudan a very wide berth in future. Would now be a good time to note that Sudan gets most of it's aid from Britain? cardboardbox?Youwerelucky raveydavey wrote: Apparently she was born in Sheffield. Which explains a lot. Bloody Southerners.   Glad she's on her way home. The sad thing here is the real losers will be the ordinary Sudanese. Those in power will carry on as they always have and anyone thinking of where to do voluntary (or so poorly paid it is almost voluntary) work overseas will be sure to give Sudan a very wide berth in future. Would now be a good time to note that Sudan gets most of it's aid from Britain? Ravey - that raises a very interesting question which I hadn't considered before - if we HAD stopped all the aid we give to Sudan (Sudannly   what a pun!) then we send them down the pan (as it were) - HOWEVER does this not then give the hardline islamic extremists exactly what they want as people then turn to religion even more (as there is nothing left and at least religion is "free") and we end up with another state like afghanastan (blimey thats hard to spell) run by another Taliban type regime Damned it we do and damned if we don't raveydavey While I can understand the Sudanese court verdict of 15 days in jail for the teacher in Sudan, I thought the deportation to Liverpool was a bit harsh.        everythingleeds.myfastforum.org Forum Index -> Current Affairs Page 1 of 1