Garp
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Gaza and IsraelOn the day that a (fingers crossed) ceasefire is in place, what do people make of this? Israel are being widely and rightly (IMO) condemned, but is it right that a nation can randomly fire misslies at another without fear of reprisal?
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ArmleyWhite
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The whole region is a massive bag of worms and a problem that aint gonna be sorted anytime soon.
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raveydavey
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I did try and compose a weighty response setting out all the pros and cons on both sides of the argument but decided it's far too big a can of worms for me to solve. Sorry.
PS - isn't the ceasefire because neither side wants to p*ss off the incming new President of the USA?
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eddiesleftfoot
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Hammas has a stated desire to get rid of very Jew in the world. If these elements could be removed from the situation a lasting peace may have a chance. However, Israel also needs to clean up it's act, agreed.
Let's not forget though we had a situation not unlike this just over the Irish Sea and that has ceased...so who knows?
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30 Mill
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Im all in favour of peace - believe me, as am ex-soldier I used to pray for it
But I wish folks would stop slagging off Israel here. The simple and over-riding FACT is that everyday for the last few years someone else has been launching rockets into their country
Now imagine if someone was doing that to England, or USA or Australia
(Tho if it hit Scumchester, the world would cheer I guess)
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Garp
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And the Jews have a right to a state, just as we all do. And history tells of upheaval in the middle east between cultures and beliefs....But how far do you go back, and how far is it taken forward? Fuck me, what a horrible race man can be
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ArmleyWhite
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OK, lets not foregt the fact that Isreal is only a country NOW because of the terrosit tactics it used against the British, after WW2.
Also, how the hell would a lot feel if a minority started building walls around itself and taking land that didn't belong to them. I suppose them in sydney, new york, london etc would feel a tad pissed off if it happened to them. Isreal is just as bad, if not worse that the palestinians here!
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cardboardbox?Youwerelucky
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The problem is (as seems to be the case in this sort of conflict) that we are trying to apply educated (and I don't mean that word in a patronising way) principles to a largely uneducated region.
They only see the very basics to it - Israel was "dumped" on their "land" and therefore they see no problem in launching rocket attacks (alas it is technology that has allowed them to do this) - if it wasn't rocket attacks it would be something else - I can't see this ever "ending" as we believe people will see "sense" at some point - probably wait another 300 years then 
Then you have Israel who retaliate (rightly or wrongly) which just antagonises the whole situation - if you put yourself into the shoes of a palestinian.... a country that everyone you know has a deep hatred of (for whatever reason) sends bombs and troops and kills your parents and half your family... you are not going to grow up thinking in a reasoned manner now are you
I just don't see how this will ever change - you have that nutter Iranian bloke who wants to "wipe Israel from the face of the planet" - jumping in everytime things go quiet FFS
Rightly or wrongly (and this is my view of most of the conflicts currently going on) you have medieval principles & ideologies with up to the minute weapons and it doesn't matter what you do, those ideologies will take generations to change (all the while you are killing their parents & family pushing their reasoning back further)
Oh and then you go and liberate their country on a blantant lie (usually doesn't help either )
*climbs off soap box
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halfaperson
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I Dont see it ever ending only in a chuffing big bang.
The only reason it stopped in Ireland was because of 9/11 and they finally realised Terrorism was a dirty word. Maybe the Martians ought to blow up some part of Earth cos thats the ony way humans are ever gonna live with each other peacefully united against them. We do seem to have to have someone to hate and fight with.
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Garp
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I am not claiming to know rights and wrongs, my question is when do you start counting, and when do you stop, and who decides when the counting starts and stops?
Fact - Jews had homelands in the region throughout thousands of years of history.
Fact - Jews kicked arse and displaced non jews throughout history.
Fact - Non jews kicked arse and displaced jews before and after the establishment of other Abrahamic cultures.
For the record, I don't know any anwers and don't stand in jusdgement except to say it seems to me that Israel has over reacted on this occasion.
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wewantourdarbyback
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Ireland, Isreal?
any similarities?
The Americans were funding one side of the conflict while pledging to help the other side find peace
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30 Mill
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| ArmleyWhite wrote: | OK, lets not foregt the fact that Isreal is only a country NOW because of the terrosit tactics it used against the British, after WW2.
Also, how the hell would a lot feel if a minority started building walls around itself and taking land that didn't belong to them. I suppose them in sydney, new york, london etc would feel a tad pissed off if it happened to them. Isreal is just as bad, if not worse that the palestinians here! |
Sorry mate, juts too much bunkum here - you need some facts to help you here:
Israel has been a race of people since before Christ - The "land" they now occuppy was vacant desert land in the 1930's used by no-one. It DEFINITELY was not some country called Palestine who had their land knciked from them
On the subject of walls being built - I'll give you the chance to choose now. To stop the suicide bombers and other scum, you either build a wall (which has reduced significantly the no of suicide bombings dramaticially in Israel) or you invade the turd of a neighbor . Or I spose you could do nothing and let your neigbors keep launching rocket attacks on you on a daily basis
Finally - its not the Palestininans that are cnuts, its Hamas. If EVER you were in doubt about Hamas, I suggest EVERYONE search youtube / google for the vido entitles "Hamas - In their own voice". I wont pre-empt the video, but it was all recorded BEFORE this latest incursion
Watch it - Listen to it - THEN tell me Israel is the same or worse than them
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30 Mill
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| Quote: | | For the record, I don't know any anwers and don't stand in jusdgement except to say it seems to me that Israel has over reacted on this occasion. |
Ignoring the obvious "D'oh" in there, let me list the answers for you
Hamas / Palestine to recognise the right of Israel to exist as a country
Hamas / Palestine to stop calling for the utter destruction of Israel
Hamas / Palestine to stop suicide bombing, rocket laucnhing against Israel
Or to para-phrase, Hamas to join the 21st Century and stop living in the medievil times
Believe me, if that happened Israel would be a quiet contented lil country
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Garp
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Right so you are talking about a terrorist organisation, fronted by a political party, and carrying out indiscriminate acts of terror against a neighbouring country, in the name of the people that elected them?
So where exactly are the UN in all of this?
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ArmleyWhite
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I know of Isreals existence pre WW2, Palestine was also a region well established throughout time, even pre Roman times. Jews and "Others" (being any religion non jewish) have lived in semi harmony since biblical times in that region. However, once WW2 ended all the European jews wanted to "go home?"
The british were in control of palestine at the time and the disgusting tactics they used to "make a homeland" were as bad as Hamas are using now on the Jews living in Ireal. The ywere openly quoting to kill every british soldier / person to obtain their aims!!!!!!!
The world critisiced the building of the Berlin wall in the 50's. Tell me how the jewish wall is any different....
I am not condonig what Hamas are doing, but just how many have those rockets killed since they started happening and how many INNOCENT palestinians been killed since the isreal incursion??
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Mort
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| ArmleyWhite wrote: | | I am not condonig what Hamas are doing, but just how many have those rockets killed since they started happening and how many INNOCENT palestinians been killed since the isreal incursion?? |
Not having a go Si, but the flaw in that particular line of argument is that the intent is there - just because they're not very good at it, doesn't make them less culpable.
And of course it's awful that Innocent people are getting killed, but that wouldn't be happening if Hamas weren't hiding amongst them, would it? And if they're allowing it - are they (the adults amongst them at least) really all that innocent?
As someone earlier said - there are rights and wrongs on both sides and the whole thing's too complex for me to get much of a handle on, but like with most things, violence (whoever originates it) is not going to be the answer.
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ArmleyWhite
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| Mort wrote: | | ArmleyWhite wrote: | | I am not condonig what Hamas are doing, but just how many have those rockets killed since they started happening and how many INNOCENT palestinians been killed since the isreal incursion?? |
Not having a go Si, but the flaw in that particular line of argument is that the intent is there - just because they're not very good at it, doesn't make them less culpable.
And of course it's awful that Innocent people are getting killed, but that wouldn't be happening if Hamas weren't hiding amongst them, would it? And if they're allowing it - are they (the adults amongst them at least) really all that innocent?
As someone earlier said - there are rights and wrongs on both sides and the whole thing's too complex for me to get much of a handle on, but like with most things, violence (whoever originates it) is not going to be the answer. |
Good points. Like I said, I wasn't / am not condoning ,just pointing out, rather badly, that several rockets fall into Isreal from Hamas controlled Palestine and a massive all out offensive is launched. Fully 100% agree that the intent is there, but the sheer force of retaliation was disgusting. Can you imagine the world wide condemnation had the british done that in Ulster / Nothern Ireland??
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30 Mill
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| ArmleyWhite wrote: | | Mort wrote: | | ArmleyWhite wrote: | | I am not condonig what Hamas are doing, but just how many have those rockets killed since they started happening and how many INNOCENT palestinians been killed since the isreal incursion?? |
Not having a go Si, but the flaw in that particular line of argument is that the intent is there - just because they're not very good at it, doesn't make them less culpable.
And of course it's awful that Innocent people are getting killed, but that wouldn't be happening if Hamas weren't hiding amongst them, would it? And if they're allowing it - are they (the adults amongst them at least) really all that innocent?
As someone earlier said - there are rights and wrongs on both sides and the whole thing's too complex for me to get much of a handle on, but like with most things, violence (whoever originates it) is not going to be the answer. |
Good points. Like I said, I wasn't / am not condoning ,just pointing out, rather badly, that several rockets fall into Isreal from Hamas controlled Palestine and a massive all out offensive is launched. Fully 100% agree that the intent is there, but the sheer force of retaliation was disgusting. Can you imagine the world wide condemnation had the british done that in Ulster / Nothern Ireland?? |
Um No - Not several, months and months or daily attacks
And No they didnt "fall" as in "Oh Ooops i dropped a rocket - silly me" they were launched indiscriminately anywhere at the Israeli population
And finally the British never had to put up with the sustained attack inside its borders that Israel does. Ask yourself the very same question "Would Britain have put up with the same shit, or would Britain have reacted even more severly?" From a historical point of view, Britain does have form in kicking fuck out of the natives if they get outta line
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Cockney White
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Indiscriminate?! Let's look at that in a bit more detail. In their most recent attacks on Gaza, the Israelis bombed a UN School, killing teachers and children. The Israeli military is, thanks to their sugar daddy the US, one of the top 5 forces in the world, with the most up-to-date weaponry, etc. How the hell could they "accidentally" destroy something the size of a school? The answer is either:
(a) It wasn't an accident
or
(b) The Israelis bombed Gaza "indiscriminately"
I cannot think of another country in recent memory that has caused as much "indiscriminate" damage and committed as many "indiscriminate" murders of innocent people without any action being taken against them as Israel have been getting away with.
We are continuously reminded about how we must never forget the Nazi persecution of the Jews for the 6 years between 1939 and 1945 and with bloody good reason. Even stranger then how the irony of the persecution of the Palestinians at the hands of Israel for the 64 years since still seems to escape so many. Even Israelis call where they live "the occupied territories"..the fact is they have been referred to as that for so long now that the reason why has been forgotten by almost everyone. Everyone, that is, except the Palestinians.
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30 Mill
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Yet another arguement that fails, totally, to address what the Palestinian Hamas is doing to a soveriegn state
Without doubt the Israeli's are guilty of some atrocities - stop launching missiles at them and live side by side and Im tipping, rough guess mnd you, that Israel, with happy neighborhood relations wont fucking retaliate big stylee
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Cockney White
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I take your point Pete, but the creation, credibility, validity and integrity of what you refer to as a "sovereign state" is the fundamental problem here. What would we all do here in England, I wonder, if we were all forced from our homes and businesses and told to live in, say, France, Germany, etc. as another population were being moved in. I don't know about you mate, but if I had a mortar handy, I'd sure as hell be using it!
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ArmleyWhite
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| 30 Mill wrote: | | ArmleyWhite wrote: | | Mort wrote: | | ArmleyWhite wrote: | | I am not condonig what Hamas are doing, but just how many have those rockets killed since they started happening and how many INNOCENT palestinians been killed since the isreal incursion?? |
Not having a go Si, but the flaw in that particular line of argument is that the intent is there - just because they're not very good at it, doesn't make them less culpable.
And of course it's awful that Innocent people are getting killed, but that wouldn't be happening if Hamas weren't hiding amongst them, would it? And if they're allowing it - are they (the adults amongst them at least) really all that innocent?
As someone earlier said - there are rights and wrongs on both sides and the whole thing's too complex for me to get much of a handle on, but like with most things, violence (whoever originates it) is not going to be the answer. |
Good points. Like I said, I wasn't / am not condoning ,just pointing out, rather badly, that several rockets fall into Isreal from Hamas controlled Palestine and a massive all out offensive is launched. Fully 100% agree that the intent is there, but the sheer force of retaliation was disgusting. Can you imagine the world wide condemnation had the british done that in Ulster / Nothern Ireland?? |
Um No - Not several, months and months or daily attacks
And No they didnt "fall" as in "Oh Ooops i dropped a rocket - silly me" they were launched indiscriminately anywhere at the Israeli population
And finally the British never had to put up with the sustained attack inside its borders that Israel does. Ask yourself the very same question "Would Britain have put up with the same shit, or would Britain have reacted even more severly?" From a historical point of view, Britain does have form in kicking fuck out of the natives if they get outta line |
1. Falling, as in artillery falls after being directed. You actually knew what I was saying, but decided make a play on words!
2. Yes daily attacks, but attacks that have killed how many??
| Quote: | | The first rocket strike was on April 16, 2001, the first time an Israeli city was hit was on March 5, 2002, when two rockets struck Sderot. Some rockets have hit as far as the edge of Ashkelon. From 2001 until December, 2008, there have been over 4048 rockets and 4040 mortars fired at Israeli targets,[7] [8] mainly against Sderot and the Western Negev. From 2001 when the missile attacks started until 27 April 2008, 13 Israelis were killed by Qassam rockets. Until today, fifteen[citation needed] Israelis have been killed and over 433 injured, along with significant property damage. |
So to justify the deaths (needless and indefensible I fully agree) of 13 people and the injuries of over 400 the isreralis decide to kill over a 500 in retaliation. Majority of those totally innocent civillians!!!!!!! Mmmmm, aye, totally justifiable eh?
What Britain did BEFORE the turn of the LAST centuary cannot be held aginast what is going on a modern world at all. I'm not sayin that britain is above reproach, of course it isn't, just that Isreal is as bad, if not worse than those sicko's sending rockets over the border.
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30 Mill
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You can review history for as long as you like, if you want you can even use a scoreline (which i think is disgracefull - exactly how many dead does Israel need to justify its action to yo????)
Simple, single fact that you cant ignore is this......
Palestine stops rocketing / suicide bombing / murdering Israel, peace happens
It just doesnt get any simpler than that. ANYTHING else and Israel is RIGHTLY going to be pissed off
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ArmleyWhite
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Who's keeping a scorline?? I am merely pointing out that the death toll between the two is disgracfull, and NEITHER should allowed to happen, but to invade a neighbouring area with blatant disregard for human life in the ridiculous guise of "geting the terrorists" is totally unacceptable!! Hamas are out of order by sending the rockets over into isreal and the isreali's need to fight this in every forum and court on the planet, not indiscriminately shell thousands of civilians out of existence!
And yes we can review history, something the jews seem to have forgotton about persecution and the bigger one can bully the smaller one, but hey!
All Isreal are doing in indiscriminately shelling and destroying innocent lives is making things far worse for them!!!!
Still, best bot critisise the persecuted ones eh?
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30 Mill
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Read my post again
Stop harming Israel - Peace breaks out - imagine that!!!
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ArmleyWhite
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| 30 Mill wrote: | Read my post again
Stop harming Israel - Peace breaks out - imagine that!!! |
Real shame you weren't around during WW2 eh. You could have been the saviour for the entire European Jewish community. I would imagine the Hitler would have shrunk away from the ultimate solution after your ultimatum..
IT takes two to tango mate!!
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30 Mill
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When we meet up for a beer ( and I do look fwd to it) for every beer we have a I'll give you a tap on the nose with my fist - nothing too hard, but just fucking annoyying
Now I'll keep on doing this all night and at the game on Sat - at what stage do you think you will get pissed off????
This sint a dance - give peace a chance as someone said once
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ArmleyWhite
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| 30 Mill wrote: | When we meet up for a beer ( and I do look fwd to it) for every beer we have a I'll give you a tap on the nose with my fist - nothing too hard, but just fucking annoyying
Now I'll keep on doing this all night and at the game on Sat - at what stage do you think you will get pissed off????
This sint a dance - give peace a chance as someone said once |
Thats ok, so long as when I do get pissed off and retaliate you won't object to me and an extra 50 well muscled blokes hitting back and knocking you into a coma???
Perspective, wonderful thing eh?
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cardboardbox?Youwerelucky
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I like this analogy lark 
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